Episode 65 – Tony B

We’ve seen so many, I guess, you know, with different brands, um, over the years, where, you know, they’ll have this hu- you know, a campaign will go out. The wrong people were writing the campaign- Mm-hmm. trying to reach, uh, an audience that they didn’t really understand. And what happens is then that everything from the creative, the message, the production, as much as they might have invested, you know, the time and, uh, the money into it- Mm-hmm. without investing on the culture side of it- Mm-hmm. and bringing the people that you need in the room to have that conversation, that’s when there sometimes can be a disconnect. I was saying something the other day, you know, all these brands want, always want cultural relevance and they always wanna be in these cultural, cultural conversations. And there is no cultural relevance without cultural representation. We hear so many buzzwords in marketing, but the more we can turn those buzzwords into something buzzworthy- Buzzworthy, I like that. Hey, everybody. Welcome back to The Blueprint. Today, I’m with an old friend, Tony B. Tony B and I met on Gumball forever ago. And, uh, this guy’s got a lot of really good stories to talk about, you know, but today he’s gonna talk about his, uh, his marketing company or his Culture Connextion company. Entrepreneur at heart, but stay tuned, we’re gonna find out what he’s gotta say. Secondly, if you guys could do me a favor, just hit that subscribe button at the bottom. It’s gonna help me get a lot of these stories out. There’s a lot of people that got st uff to say, and, and I think that you’d kinda really relate to those. So, if you guys could just hit that, that’d be great. Thanks. Tony, thanks for coming on the show. Appreciate you. Appreciate you, Brandon. Thanks for having me out here, man. Good- Yeah. good to be in this dope space, man. Thank you, man. I’m really proud of it, man. We just got in it a little bit ago, and, it’s, it’s really nice to, to pick the vibe out, so. Definitely, definitely. It’s beautiful, man. You can feel, you can feel that, you can feel the vibes and energy in here, man. Definitely. Thank you. Well, just before we jump into your entire story, which is kinda how this podcast really goes overall, I’d like to talk about, you know, a little bit about what you’re doing right now, just so people can know why they wanna listen. Absolutely. So, um, I have a company called The Culture Connextion that I started, uh, back in 2020. Um, so, you know, during the pandemic, a lot of people, you know, especially in our industry, marketing, um, especially with experiences, obviously people were getting laid off, uh, furloughed. Um, I was one of those people that was impacted. So, um, you know, while I could have just kind of sat around and waited for, see what happened, instead, this is something I’d always wanted to do, something for myself, um, and start my own, uh, thing. And so, um, that kinda just sparked the inspiration during that downtime with the, the lockdowns- Mm-hmm. and started The Culture Connextion. Um, essentially what The Culture Connextion does is we, uh, work with brands, agencies, companies, celebrities, uh, whoever it may be, um, and what we do is we connect brands with culture in an authentic, uh, incredible way. Uh, we do it through, uh, cultural nuance, through cultural representation and through, uh, cultural respect. Uh, so when these campaigns and these events, experiences hit, they hit the, the way they’re supposed to in cultu- culture and really drive conversation the right way. Hmm, okay. What you’re trying to do is be authentic to people, let them know, like, hey man, don’t just shove something in there that’s kindaThat could actually thumb the nose at some, some people that you’re trying to connect with, as opposed to, you know, do it the right way. Absolutely. Uh, you know, we’ve seen so many, I guess, you know, with different brands, um, over the years, where, you know, they’ll have this hu- you know, a campaign will go out. The wrong people were writing the campaign- Mm-hmm. trying to reach, uh, an audience that they didn’t really understand. And what happens is then that the, uh, everything from the creative, the message, the production, as much as they might have invested, you know, the time and, uh, the money into it- Mm-hmm. without investing i- in, on the culture side of it- Mm-hmm. and bringing the people that you need in the room to have that conversation, that’s when there sometimes can be a disconnect. Mm-hmm. Um, so, you know, you know, we used to see this from everything with, you know, multicultural agencies, which was the side I started on. Um, you know, it, it, it was frankly kind of disgusting to see. Mm-hmm. Um, because you’re doing this amazing work, but then you’re realizing how small these budgets are compared to like the, the agency of record, um- Mm-hmm. budget. And you’re expected to kind of do the same thing, um, on the same scale with a lot less resources. Mm-hmm. Um, but what we started seeing in, in that space when we were creating in that multicultural side is how that, how those campaigns, those messages, the crea- the creative experiences was connecting with the larger population. And I think what, what that realization is, is America is a multicultural- Hm. Yeah. um, country, right? Mm-hmm. And, you know, Gen Z, Gen Alpha, the, the m- the more we progress, the more- Mm-hmm. diverse it’s gonna get. So, a lot of stuff that was segmented in the past- Yeah. it’s really part of pop culture. Mm-hmm. So, I always say culture is the creative director- Mm-hmm. of pop culture. And, you know, that’s where we try to work with, uh, brands closely to advise them, guide them, and just really help them hit the, the nail on the head- Mm-hmm. with, with these campaigns. So, so it hits from a, from a perspective where it’s engaging from a social perspective, from a earned media perspective, but also from the consumer perspective- Hm. that, that audience perspective. So when it hits and they see it, it’s something that they look at and they’re like, “Wow, that makes sense,” instead of, “Okay, that was just a, a paycheck to a celebrity-” Yeah. ” to be cool, um-” Yeah. ” for, for, uh, a campaign-” Yeah. ” and not have that lasting kind of effect and c- continuity. “Yeah. You can see, like, I mean, even, even for me, like, I’m watching a lot of commercials or brands or people that tie in with stuff, and I feel like you lose some of that authentic nature of like, what, what they’re truly trying to do, as opposed to sometimes people, I think, what’s the term, culture vulture, right? Where- Yes. where people come in and just really try to, “Yeah, we did that,” and to check the box, you know? When the, when really the heart’s not there for what they’re trying to do, they’re just trying to say, “We did what’s right,” you know? And so- Yeah. we’re really at a crossroads right now between people who are-standing at a place telling people what we should be doing toFrom people that know, the people that don’t know, and then the people that don’t know are trying to act like they’re the authority on it. Yep. And you’re not really representing the people that are, truly feel a certain way, you’re just personifying what you think they feel, right? 100%. 100%. And so many times, it’s like these things that we see that w- when, you know, there’s cr- like, crisis communications, uh- Mm-hmm. happen wh- around these campaigns, you’re always like, “It was so avoidable. “Mm-hmm. You know? Uh, and sometimes it’s not even, like, a crisis, right? Like, it’s, you know, sometimes it does get to that level. Mm-hmm. But, you know, we’ve seen, like, luxury brands, uh, with very racist, uh, campaigns that they may or may not have even realized. Yeah. But again, I think that’s where the representation, uh, is so critical. Mm-hmm. Just having those, um, uh, voices of, um, uh, that could represent the cultures that you’re trying to hit. Mm-hmm. Or they can tell you, “Oh, oh, that’s, that’s not how it should go. “Let’s not do that. Right. Yeah. And then can tell you, “This is why-” Yeah. ” that’s not w- the way it rather should go. “Um, so that’s when I, you know, hear things like, you know, about, you know, the way like D&I is, are getting kinda demonized, um, I think that the, the thing we gotta remember is it’s not about quotas, it’s about diverse perspectives, right? Mm-hmm. So, um, I think that’s where it’s, where it’s really been demonized, when people are focusing on the wrong side of it, you know? Mm-hmm. Again, the, uh, the quotas and, uh, stuff of that nature. It, to me, it’s not about that at all. Diversity’s needed because we- Mm-hmm. we need to have diverse perspectives in a room. Mm-hmm. You know, we, I might think of something one way, you may think of something another way- Mm-hmm. and a third person might think of it another way, right? Mm-hmm. And we’re all on the same team, trying to get the, uh- Mm-hmm. the campaign out, what our, the experience or whatever it may be. Yeah. Um, and I think that’s the, the beauty of having those diverse perspectives is you’re gonna see something that I didn’t see- Mm-hmm. and the other guy’s gonna see something that- Mm-hmm. that w- we didn’t see. Mm-hmm. And then we all gonna come together and figure out, “Okay, now this is the best way to move forward with it. “Mm-hmm. So you’re not, it’s not, like, again, about, uh, you know, e- eh, trying to demonize anything. It’s more about bringing those perspectives into the room- Mm-hmm. into the conversation to get the best product out. Yeah. You know? When you get to that point where you see people are kinda kicking back at it, right? How do you, how do you have the conversation that takes people to say, “Hey, look, this is not just about exclusion, it’s about inclusion,” right? But how do you also take their perspective and listen to it a little bit, and go, “Okay, I see where you’re coming from, and I can see why someone qualified didn’t get something because of this,” right? Or, “I can see why you would be upset. “Mm-hmm. Right? Because I think a lot of times, when it does come to the culture setting like that, um, people will say something, and then it quickly gets dismissed, and we’re all not supposed to say anything, right? Because we don’t wanna offend somebody, or we’re gonna do whatever. But I think the, the real situation is when it comes down to open conversation, you know? “Hey, man, let me hear how you feel,” right? Not, “Let me hear how you feel, and let me jump down your throat about because you don’t believe what I believe. “Right. Right? It’s like those, i- if we can, we can, uh, disagree on something, like, that’s okay. 100%. As long as we have the conversations about why we agree about it and whatever, and I mean, that all comes down to votes at the end of the day, right? That- Literally. That’s it. That’s it. What you just said is, is exactly it. It’s just listening to each other- Mm-hmm. and, and understanding. And like you said, we might not agree- Mm-hmm. uh, on everything, right? But it’s just at least being able to hear the, the other person’s perspective and being like- Yeah. “I didn’t even think of it like that. “Yeah. “I get what you’re saying. “Mm-hmm. “I still feel the way I feel-” Mm-hmm. but that may have led me- Yeah. to at least reconsider something,” or- Mm-hmm. And again, it’s not, you know, there’s things th- that are so divisive, you know, like politics, for example, right? Yeah. Like, for a long time, I was trying to figure out how to convince people of, t- to hear a perspective. Now, I think it’s, uh, it just, I, it’s not about trying to convince them of what, you know, my perspective might be or whoever else’s perspective might be, a politician’s perspective. That’s exactly what it, exactly what you said is what it really should be about. Like, “Let me hear what you say. “Yeah. “I wanna hear what you’re saying based on what your experience is. “Mm-hmm. And then factor that into, like if I’m a politician, into, “All right, now, n- maybe I need to look at this differently. “Yeah. It’s the same with marketing, you know, with brands. Mm-hmm. Like, I feel like, again, it’s sometimes, you know, you get pushback. I remember hearing some, from some, uh, brands I worked with in the past when I was presenting multicultural influencers for, um, campaigns, and I getting asked if, “Oh, is thisAre they asking for a multicultural campaign? “And that’s when I was like, “Okay, how can I, how can I explain this in a better way,” versus just, like, you know, from, you know, my perspective. Mm-hmm. So then I started getting with, like, our data and analytics teams- Mm-hmm. and pulling in data to show, like, what the competters- competitors’ audiences were. Mm-hmm. How d- why they were probably outperforming, ’cause they were reaching this, this audience that they were trying to tap into- Yeah. but hadn’t tapped into it yet. So, it was- Mm-hmm. really more about, uh, like you said earlier, understanding and bringing people to a common place. And sometimes data and analytics can help shape that in a certain way. Mm-hmm. But then there’s, you know, something else I always talk about, you know, with, you know, we hear a lot about cultural intelligence in marketing, right? Mm-hmm. Um, one thing I always talk about is, what’s the truth behind it, though? Mm. You know, there’s a, there’s aWe can look through, we, uh, data and analytics and get to an insight. But if we don’t understand why that, that insight exists- Mm. based on, you know, like, the audience and, you know, their, their unique perspectives, their experiences, then we can’t really get to the right, you know, the right strategy, the right idea- Mm-hmm. and the right execution, because we’re not digging deeper. So it’s always, that’s what I always tell people, like, you get a creative brief, you get a ask, it’s like, yeah, this is what it says on the surface. Mm-hmm. Let’s dig into it as far as possible- Mm-hmm. to figure out what they really trying to do- Mm-hmm. and how we can really bring it to life. And a- again, so it’s not just a one-off campaign. It’s a, it, it starts like a, a wave, like a m- like a movement- Mm-hmm. that gets people behind these brands- Mm-hmm. um, gets brands to respect the audiences they’re trying to reach and figure out from a even partnerships- Mm-hmm. like, how you can do more purposeful partnerships. Mm-hmm. So, I just think there’s a lot of things we look at on a surface level, um, you know, just as a, uh, as a industry, as a, as a country, as a, as a, as a people, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, and that’s where, you know, again, like, you know, through things like Gumbo, meet people that are totally different from us, and then we find a common bond- Right. that makes you forget all the, all the differences, right? Mm-hmm. You know? So, I think that’s the beautiful thing about who we are as a people- Yeah. and how we can really get to- Mm. those truths. Yeah. Meeting people from all over the world, and you get to see, like, what’s it like here, what’s it like in the other diff- in the different places, too, and then understand that culture is not just where you’re at. Right. Culture’s everywhere, right? And if you step into another world and their culture is very impactful, you can’t have just your lens- That’s-to see what it’s through, right? No matter h- I mean, even if we live next door to each other, our lens is kind of by the, you know, the area we live in, and, and the, and the, economy that we live in, and everything kind of feeds into that, right? And the history of our country feeds into that. You go to these others- 100%. that are two, three thousand years old, and next thing you know, it’s like, it’s a little different, you know? And soMan, so true. Mm-hmm. Man, that, that, th- that’s amazing that you pointed that out, ’cause I always tell people that. Um, you know, my family is from, uh, Sri Lanka. Um, you know, for anyone who may not be familiar with Sri Lanka, it’s a little island off the sou- southeastern coast of, uh, India. It looks like a teardrop. Um, and I hadn’t been there, um, since 1983 until I went back in 2012, ’cause there was this, uh, civil war that had been going on from ’83 to 2009. Uh, so, I didn’t remember it. You know, I was s- baby when I was there, right? Mm-hmm. So, when we went back in 2012, there was something about it that, you know, for, for my parents, um, a- and for myself where we wanted to see, you know, the p- the, the places we couldn’t go last time we were there where our family’s from up north. And you just go through these, these different countries, different, uh, cultures, like you were talking about earlier, and it puts everything into perspective, you know? Mm-hmm. Somebody born and raised in, uh, uh, in the US and grew up here, I didn’t, I, you know, I’ve traveled, uh, to other countries, but never really fully appreciated the history- Mm-hmm. until, you know, I was older and started traveling more. And then you go to these other countries and you’re like, “Oh my god. “Like you said, like, you know, you’re looking at how old our country is- Mm-hmm. as opposed to how old these civilizations are- Mm-hmm. elsewhere. And it’s like, man, it, it puts it in perspective. Yeah. To see the, the architecture- Yeah. the artwork, and- Yeah. it’s like, man, this is how m- how many thousands of years old? This building is 10 times the l- the, uh, older than our country? Yes. Yeah, okay. All right. Yeah, man. It’s a building. Yeah. That, that blew me- Yeah. away, and standing in some of these places where it was just like, how did they have this technology- Mm-hmm. long ago? And again, you, you know, from a Western perspective, we s- sometimes, you know, look at other nationsI remember when I was younger, always hearing about third world countries and stuff like that. And, you know,People probably thought that’s what a country like Sri Lanka was, ’cause it’s, you know, civil war was going on. But then, you know, I had heard all these beautiful stories about it from our family, my grandmothers, my parents, uncles and aunts, when they were there before, uh, you know, the civil war started. And-you, you’re like, man, if it’s so beautiful- Mm-hmm. how can it be this third world country? Mm-hmm. And then again, it’s perception, it’s our perspectives, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, we look at things differently, we, we look at cultures that we don’t understand through a different lens. But- Mm-hmm. going back what you said, you know, with traveling the world and stuff and being in other countries, other, um, around other cultures, that’s when you reallyThat immersion is when you really get it, you know? Mm-hmm. You start really feeling it. And, you know, I think allowing yourself to, to get fully immersed in those cultures when you’re traveling is- Yeah. the most important thing. Yeah, yeah. I mean, just a little taste of everything, right, just gives you a understanding of what you got, you know? Absolutely. You know, I think when you break it down, I was kind of listening to your story a minute ago, and it, and, and it seems like as far as what you do for other companies, you’re a liaison, um, for companies not to step on landmines. Yeah. Right? That’s a great way to put it. You know, I’m just sitting here thinking, like because you see so many times where people are, uh, wanting to do this or wanting to do that, right? Uh, much like every commercial you see now has, one race and another race and a mixed kid. Yep, 100%. It’s every commercial, right? Yeah. Every one. And, you know, it’s, it’s there’s some creative director out there that’s like, “I justI’m gonna play this safe, you know, can’t mess up here. “Yeah. You know, and it’s like, at some point, can’t we just be like, it’s okay for that and it’s okay for that and it’s okay for this? But it ha- But we’ve allEveryone has their one commercial they gotta put out, and they’re checking the box. Yep. You know, how do you, how do you represent that to a company that comes to you? Do you automatically say, “Hey, let’s play safe,” or do you say, “Hey, do we want to stretch,” or, “It’s okay to do this”? I think it’s, I think it’s exactly what you said, about it’s okay to do this. Um, you know, the stretching, I think, is, is important when, when it w- when it warrants that, right, like when, when you ca- youWhen you’re looking at the brand and the brand persona, what they’re trying to do through the creative brief, and it’s like, oh, we have some creative flexibility here, let’s, let’s go crazy, let’s push it. Mm-hmm. There’s other times where it needs to be a certain way, you know? It, uh, it may beYou, you may be communicating it to a specific audience, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and I think, to your point, ifW- we obviously see it as marketers, if we can see, we can see through the- Just straight transparent. Just straight through it, right? And now, uh, this is what I always tell, you know, my, my clients, you know, whether it’s brands, agencies, whoever, is that the, the audience is, is not stupid. Yeah. They can read through it as quick as we can- Mm-hmm. sometimes quicker. Mm-hmm. Um, so to your point, when, when you’re seeing like, oh, there’s this, this whole bu- buffet of diversity represented in this one ad- Yeah, yeah. and it’s like, all right, man, all right, this isThis feels forced more than- Yes. th- than authentic, you know? And I think that’s when, to your point, it’sTh- then you’re gonna have the, the total opposite reaction from the audience too, right? Mm-hmm. Then it’s, then it’s not gonna hit the diverse audience you were trying to hit- Yeah. or the, the an original target audience it may have been, right? So, I think that’s the, the biggest thing is really understanding who the brand is, wh- what their, what their personality is, um, and then, you know, again, going back to what I was saying about that campaign that I got asked about, you know, is, is this a multicultural campaign- Mm-hmm. and then it’s really about showing the numbers at that point. Mm-hmm. And, you know, that, that’s where I think like where data and analytics really does come in to, to help shape some of that, that conversation, not because we look at the, our, you know, the audiences that these companies are trying to reach, and we look at the how the younger generations are getting more and more, uh, diverse and multicultural. And then it’sUh, and then we look at the, what the common bond is there, you know, again, like I was saying earlier, with culture as the d- creative director of pop culture, culture’s becoming such a, you knowIt, it’s getting tied into everything, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and to your point, that’s theThat- That’s myWhat I feel would be my main goal, and you were mentioning about the, um, theYou know, like sometimes you see this culture vulture type, uh- Yeah. vibes. My mission, I would say, um, is to, is to protect the culture, um, first and foremost. So, you know- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, all right, you guys want to do something that’s gonna drive conversations in culture, that’s gonna- Yeah. get the hypebeast and the highs and the byrdies- Mm-hmm. and, uh, whoever talking about it, get the people in culture talking about it. Mm-hmm. You gotta do it the right way- Yeah. to, to do that, right? So, um, that matters from everything from the creative, that matters from everything from the, the copywriting, that m- it’s everything from the, the partners and the influencers and the people you have a par- as a part of that campaign. And again, I think like, you know, with, you know, with Gumball, for example, with all, you know, stuff we’ve done, we see how much diversity i- is- Mm-hmm. in something just like that, right? Mm-hmm. Um, in that community. Um, and that’s the dope thing, like especially with these younger generations. I see, like, my nieces and nephews and their group of friends, and I’m like, “Man, it’s a representation of what, that, what America is. “Yeah. You know? And that, to me, that’s a, that’s a beautiful thing. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, that’s where I always, you know, again, like really just, I’m just always gonna be an advocate for the culture. Mm-hmm. Um, and a protector of the culture. Um- Mm-hmm. And I think that’s important, because that’s the way those brands can actually break through in culture. Mm-hmm. Is to show that they, they’re not just trying to crack into the conversation, they’re trying to be an active part of it. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, brands I’ve worked with in the past, like Wendy’s, for example, um, they were doing it really well with, like, you know, um, the brand voice on- Mm-hmm. Twitter. Mm-hmm. Or X now, um, whatever people call it. Mm-hmm. Um, the way they were communicating and the way the audience was connecting with it was interesting. And then, you know, from there, it was like, how can we take, take what’s already an established cultural currency that they- Mm-hmm. got with this Twitter voice, and how can we take that to th- to other places in culture? Um, so that led to, uh, you know, a street wear drop that, um, you know, that we did with, uh, Don C. Um, you know, shout out to Don C. , shout out to Chicago. Um, Don C. ‘s a, a good friend of ours, and, you know, we were thinking, Wendy’s had this brand truth fresh, uh, not frozen beef, right? Mm-hmm. And connecting that with culture was not really necessarily about actual fresh beef, but more of what the word fresh meant to this audience they were trying to reach. And it was like, what does, what does, what does that word, how does that word translate to this audience? And it was like, fresh. Mm-hmm. Fashion. Street wear. And, you know, Don C. has the, you know, the, um, the NBA-inspired- Mm-hmm. the jerseys, everything, the hats. Um, and it was a March Madness campaign, so it just made sense. Mm-hmm. So, sometimes the brand might not even know who some of these, uh- Mm-hmm. players are, but the idea makes so much sense- Yeah. um, that they were like, “What? Let’s go all in on it. “Mm-hmm. And, you know, that was something that we were able to do that, that really broke through in culture. You know, we had people like Virgil commenting on it. Mm-hmm. RIP Virgil. Um, you know, s- uh, all kinds of street wear, influencers, brands commenting on it. And then, same week, gave us a window to drop that Wendy’s mixtape- Mm-hmm. that went, uh, viral. So, I always tell people it’s, it’s finding those perfect storms, and it’s also finding the right times to connect dots. Uh, you know, when you can get that cu- when brands start getting that cultural currency, start going, that c- conversation going, one thing we see is that conversation will die down. Mm-hmm. If there’s not a, if there’s not a connected, um, strategy to keep that conversation going. So, that’s what I always try to, um, you know, do with brands and agencies is, hey, let’s not make this a one-off. Let’s make this a, a always on button that we’re turning on. If we’re gonna tap into here- Mm-hmm. turn it all, all the way on, so we can stay in these conversations and stay in this cultural conversation and be a part of the culture. Mm-hmm. Not just be a, a culture vulture, right? Right. Isn’t it really difficult for a, any company, any brand to come out and say, like, “Look, I want to address certain topics,” or, “I want to address, uh, certain feelings or things that are going on in the community,” right? ‘Cause you almost, as a brand, no matter what, people behind a keyboard are gonna wanna pop off, right? Yeah. And so, uh, as they, as you address any comment, and, and I, and I know this because, like, some of the brands that we’ve worked with in the past are like, “Don’t want to say anything about anybody, about anywhere or anything. “And then, they kind of get slapped at for not even addressing things that need to be talked about, right? Yep. You can’t win, right? Yep. You talk about it, you get slapped. You choose the wrong person, you get slapped. Yep. You don’t say anything, you’re not standing up. You know what I mean? It’s like, at what point do these brands really, how, how can they win when it comes down to it, right? Yeah. And man, that’s a great point, because you look at brands, like, for example, say, like, a brand like Ben- Ben and Jerry’s, right? Mm-hmm. They’re known for, that’s part of their brand personality an- and, and their brand DNA, right? Mm-hmm. Their, um, that they’re always been advocates about causes, um, you know, marginalized, uh, communities. Um, so when they, when they make a statement, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s almost like k- it’s n- nothing, I’m n- I’m not saying that s- it’s scripted or expected, but it’s, it’s, it’s not coming off as, “Oh, I’m just came out of left field. “You know what I mean? LikeIt’s not disingenuous. Yeah. You see it, and you’re like- Mm-hmm. “That’s, that’s exactly-” It’s who they are. “what that brand stands for. “Yeah. You know? So, it makes sense for them to say it. Um, I think like a lot, like say for example around the time of George Floyd, um, RIP George Floyd, um, and the whole Black Lives Matter, uh, movement, and brands were, that’s when a lot of brands were like really trying to figure out, okay- Mm-hmm. like you said, “We have to say something. “What do we do? But do we say something? Yeah. Right? And that’s where I think like the, the personality, um, and that DNA matters, right? Mm-hmm. Um, to your point, brands that were gonna say something just, you know, feeling like, “We need to say something,” like getting- Mm-hmm. you know, “We gotta make a statement, that’s who we are as a brand, we’re gonna say anything. We’re-” Mm-hmm. ” or we’re gonna say something,” even though that might not be what they, y- you know, what they’re known for, like a Ben & Jerry’s, right? Mm-hmm. The, the comments, like you mentioned, you’re always gonna have people in those, in those comments that are either- Keyboard superstars. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You know? So I think that’s the, what you’ve gotta assess is how much do we care about this conversation or this situation that’s going on? Mm-hmm. Um, and then looking at who your consumers are too. Hm. You know, who your audience is, who your brand advocates are, and if this matters, if this cause matters to them, and then make, e- getting with the right people to help you craft that, um, that statement or that, um, that con, or cr- craft that conversation to help guide you in that conversation. Um, so again, it’s not scripted, it’s more just guiding it from a cultural nuance perspective. Mm-hmm. Um, and then if they, if it, you know, again, you’re gonna, you’re gonna have to take those licks. There’s gonna be people on one side saying- Yep. “We love you for saying this,” people on the other side saying, “Why are you even getting involved in this conversation? “Mm-hmm. Um, but I think it’s, it’s assessing, oh, your audience and knowing what matters to them, and then addressing it from there. Because at the end of the day, if brands aren’t advocating for their core consumer audience- Mm-hmm. they’re gonna lose that, that, that base, right? Mm-hmm. Like, people are gonna be, “Man, this brand doesn’tHow much money are we gonna keep giving to this brand-” Yeah. ” that they don’t even care about it? “Yeah. Uh, so I think that’s the, you gotta, you gotta know i- if there’s gonna be backlash from it, um, and you gotta be, you gotta be just accep- accepting to that. On the flip side of that too, I think with some, the, the nuance there is too not going overboard with the, the message or, uh, whatever you’re gonna do. Right? Um, if, if that, if that’s not who the brand is, right? Hm. If the, uh, again, going back to Ben & Jerry’s, they, they’re gonna go all in on it, right? Whatever their statement’s gonna be made, it’s gonna be a very direct, bold, in your face, w- this is who we are and, and that’s it, and we’re standing on this. Mm-hmm. Um, but some other brands, they don’t have that, that’s not what they’re known for. So for them to make that statement, it could come across as d- disingenuous. It could come across as performative. It could- Mm-hmm. There’s so many things you gotta, that factor in there, right? But again, I think that’s where it’s who, who are we and what do we stand for and what do we represent? Mm-hmm. And that’s how you craft a statement, right? Mm-hmm. That starts with whoever the, the, um, you know, the heads, you know, the, the C-suite, the marketing department, the PR team. It’s gotta come from the, from the core of the company, right? Yeah. Um, but then again, that’s why I’m saying, like, you know, that’s when they need to partner with, you know, with companies that can help them craft that message, help them reach the audience they’re trying to reach. Mm-hmm. And again, make sure it’s, it’s on, it’s on par with the brand and on par with the, the audience that they’re trying to communicate to- Mm-hmm. and, and have a message that resonates. Yeah. I mean, and it’s funny becausenot funny. It’s interesting because, uh, I’ve always thought about how to address certain points, right? Yeah. You said a couple of key, key points a minute ago, like, what does it really mean to you? Like, how are you affected by this? What does it really mean to you? Um, and I know with my, I mean, you guys know with my circle of friends, it’s very diverse. Like, I- Absolutely. the, the more diverse, the better for me. Like, I- I- I love having conversations, and I, and I try to have real conversations with people about, you know, things as opposed to, like, “I’m not stepping to that,” or, “I’m not saying this,” or whatever. But I also have to read the person on the other side to make sure they’re accepting of those conversations, right? Yeah. So it’s a, it’s a very thin line, you know, to get to that point. Um, but you said, how much does it mean to the, to the company, right? And then, how authentic is it going to be if it is tertiary or fringe for me, and I feel like I need to step up and say something? Now it’s gonna be perceived the other way. Like, now I’m hopping on just tonow neither side’s gonna like this at all, right? Because one is, y- you were seen somewhere in the middle, and you just kind of popped off and d- took one side or the other- Or the other. now neither, and you’re like, oh, you stole this a little bit trying to ride the hype train, and this one’s like, “All right, man, I’m tired of you now too,” because now you’ve, now you’ve just jumped over to try to jumps- ’cause you feel like that’s what you’re supposed to do, right? What you’re supposed to do. Right, right. And- and like you said, like, you can, you can honestly, it’sI really think that a liaison from like, you, you know, a company like yours is really good for those larger companies that are looking not to step on mines all the place, right? Um- 100%. And that’s why I think that’s the, the re- that- that self-realization too, right? Um, you know, if a, if a major brand, um, an agency doesn’t get it, but they know that they gotta reach this audience, it’s- it’s not trying to do it on your own. It’s working with partners that- that can help you, help guide it, right? Mm-hmm. So I think that’s where I’ve, uh, I gotta g- give credit to, you know, a lot of the partners I’ve worked with, their willingness and openness to say, “This is what we’re- w- what we’re being asked to do. We- we know we have the- a partner who can help us do this. Instead of trying to take it on ourselves, let’s bring in the partner to help m- make sure we do this right. “Mm-hmm. Um, and that’s, I think, the- the beautiful thing about collaboration, right? Like- Mm-hmm. it’s, the, when you get into collaborative, creative, um, environments where you’re not competing, you know, like- Mm-hmm. uh, I know you f- know this very well from, um, from the agency side, too, in the- the world we live in, with everything being s- siloed to an extent, you know. We could, we got integrated marketing communications, right? But the teams at, uh, you know, at agencies, um, are typically siloed, you know. You got your- Mm-hmm. creative team, your production team, your experiential team, your PR team, your account team, everything, right? Digital team, data team, um, and it’s all these kind of silos. Um, and, you know, the- the- the way I think that all works so much better in cohesion is to break those walls down- Mm-hmm. and have everyone in a room together, you know? Mm-hmm. Oftentimes, you got the creative team, ideate in one room, strategy in one room, PR team, and then you’re, like, trying to pull everything together and make it make sense- Mm-hmm. when it could have made a lot more sense if we were all in the same room talking about what this is- Right. and then being like, “Okay, I see where you’re going there, but did you think about this? “Yeah. And so it’s, it doesn’t become a competitive thing. Mm-hmm. It’s just like a, again, how do we get to the truth- Yeah. uh, and really dig into this and make sure we’re not checking boxes, we’re checking the, looking at the boxes that could make this go the other way- Mm-hmm. or could make it hit less, with less impact. Right. Um, not even from, like, a crisis perspective- Mm-hmm. just from a creative perspective, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so that’s the experience I’ve had at, you know, the agencies I’ve worked with, and even with my company now- Mm-hmm. um, is that collaborative space. I love working with every team and bringing them together. Mm-hmm. Um, so yeah, I think the more we break down those- those walls, those silos- Mm-hmm. Yeah. and bring everything together, really making it integrated- Yeah. is when things will really, really hit. Yeah, I mean, I, and I think that that is just a subset of what, really, culture is about too, right? Yeah. Uh, let’s just say the- the- the web team and the, and the digital team and the, and the creative team and, you know, just, they’re all silos, just like the rest of the world is, right? Right. And we all live in our silos, and we kind of surround ourselves with people just like us, which is crazy to me. Yeah. Like, I don’t understand that. Like, you go all over the world, and there’s little pods of people with certain, uh, criteria that everyone kind of, “Yeah, I’m cool in this spot. “Yeah. It’s like, why, why? Why? Like, what’s that about, right? But it’s the same thing, and like you said, the- the more we break those barriers down, the better it would be, but it’s just not really happening in the real world. It’s not. It’s not. And, you know, I’ve always kind ofInteresting enough, I always looked, kind of pare this back to my upbringing, like, um, you know, I grew up in, you know, I live in Chicago. I’ve been in Chicago for 20 years now. Uh, but I grew up in Indiana. Um, you know, I grew up in Marion, Indiana. Shout out to Marion. Um, it’s a- it’s a- it’s a small town. You know, I think there were, when I was growing up, it was like 35,000 people. Um, you know, blue-collar town. Um, you know, there was GM, RCA, um, you know, fact- lot of factories. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, now that I look back on it, when- when I was growing up, it felt like the most diverse place I could imagine, you know? Mm-hmm. And again, it’s Indiana- Mm-hmm. where you would not think that at all, right? NotUh, so the community there, I think, like, going back to what you’re saying about-um, how we break down those walls, that’s, uh, that was always something that was always kinda in me just, eh, you know, before I got into marketing- Mm-hmm. was I always felt like my group of friends growing up was so, so diverse. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, uh, from, you know, background to race to, to everything. Mm-hmm. Um, and so when I came into marketing, that was already kind of a part of who I was- Yeah. was breaking down those walls. I always felt like I was tr- meant to be a connector even in that space- Mm-hmm. connector of people. Yeah. So now it was like, “Okay, I’m just bringing, like, the who I feel like I, I have been my whole life into, into my work. “Um, and, you know, that’s th- that, that, that’s why I think, like, we, you know, the more we apply our real life experiences, right- Mm-hmm. to wha- to what we do, whether it’s marketing, whether it’s business, whether it’s finance, whatever it may be, um- Mm-hmm. th- that’s where I think, you know, we start really understanding people m- more, um, and, you know, then we can meet people where they are- Mm-hmm. um, and they can meet us where we are. You know what I mean? And that’s why I just think, you know, just understanding people, talking to people, hearing what their background is, um, you really start f- figuring things out. Um, and then on the brand side, you know, you, uh, uh, on the marketing side, m- it’s the same, the same logic applies. You break down those walls, you bring people together. Mm-hmm. Now you have that diversity 0 of perspective and thought in that room from creative, from the web- Yeah. like, “Oh, that’s a n- great creative idea but it’s-” Mm-hmm. ” really not gonna connect on digital because of X, Y, Z. “Yeah. Or, “That’s gonna be, that’s a n- amazing production idea but it’s not gonna work from a creative side because of this,” or- Yeah. “This is gonna be great. It’s gonna drive earned media, right? “Mm-hmm. No, eh, that’s not how earned media works. Mm-hmm. Here’s how we can flip that and make it connect a- across all cylinders. “Mm-hmm. And the more, I think, brands start to do that, that’s when this integrated model, I think, is really gon’ shine, right, the way it should, you know? Yeah. It’s, we hear so many buzzwords, uh, in, in marketing but the more we can turn those buzzwords into something buzzworthy- Buzzworthy, I like that. You know? I like that. No, honestly, that’s, that’s really cool, like, uh, to think about what, what people are saying just as, like, jumping on, like, trying to carry the torch for somebody else, right? I, and, and just like you said, in Indiana, the school I went to, I mean, if you listen to my accent, you would think it was pretty one-sided, the town I grew up in. 50/50 where I grew up. See. And it’s what really, and, and my school was exactly that way, right? And so, I had such a diverse, uh, friend group and, and, and we, I feel like now I go, I, I can walk into any group and know where to carry myself and where not to and still feel authentic- Yeah. because of the friends that I’ve had throughout my life and, and, and not having toAnd that’s just exposure, right? That’s not me just knowing better or me doing better, it’s just me having exposure to different people and seeing, like, where does the edge come out or where is, where’s a hot topic or, or whatever. And, like, me not trying to step on someone’s toes because that is part of, you know, their culture or their, you know, wha- you know, whatever it is, right? Like, look, I, I know my voice sounds like I rode a, uh, a horse when I was a, when I was a kid but-at the end of the day, like, I’m never gonna personify myself as a real cowboy. I grew up in the country but I, I find it very offensive to see all these people throwing cowboy hats on and f- and tight wrangler pants and a big belt buckle and, and just literally playing the role of a cowboy for a day. And I was like, “If you did that in another culture, do you know what people would do? They would flip out. “Out, yeah. But those guys that really do that, th- those guys, they work so very hard. They’re some of the hardest working people, and they just, they wear themselves to the bone, and I’m like, “I would never, myself, put that on for a day, um, wear, wear a costume for a day, because I-” That, that’s it. Because it’s offensive. And if I walked into their bar or I walked into their place and I had on, like, half of what works and all of a sudden I got on some skinny jeans with some boots, these boys are gonna look at me like-“Okay, somebody take him out back real quick. “Right, right, right. You know what I mean? And so, like, being able to understand, like, uh, know your spot. Yeah. A- And you don’t have to clad everybody else’s things onto you to be accepted. Like, people actually really prefer the authentic version of you, whatever it is. 100%. You know what I mean? 100%. 100%. That, if, if we’re not seeing who the authentic person is, then how do we even know if we want to even have a, any type of relationship with this person? Mm-hmm. Um, that, that’s one thing I always say that I pride myself on, um, that, you know, who I was when I was a kid is the same person that I am now. Um, I was always the, I was always vocal. I was always very tapped into hip hop. I was always very tapped into protecting hip hop, protecting culture, uh, driving culture. But I was also very protective of my family and friends. Mm-hmm. Um, so the same way I was protective of, of, you know, the, the cultures that I was part of, and I always tell people too, you know, we talk about multicultural. know, um, my parents are from Sri Lanka. I was born in Indianapolis. Uh, you know, I grew up, uh, in the hip hop culture, so it’s all these, like, 3 different cultures that- Mm-hmm. um, you know, that I was a part of and, you know, always wanted to make sure were respected and, um, and that I was, I was talking about and promoting the, the, the right way. Um, and so that authenticity you, you mentioned, in Indiana, I remember, you know, hip hop was so, when, you know, in the ’90s, was so, was so big. Mm-hmm. Especially, like, the late ’90s. You know, you look, it, it, it, it, it spread across everybody. Mm-hmm. It wasn’t just, you know, the, the culture kids. It was- Yeah. Everybody- Everybody. was dressed in hip hop. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, s- some of that was probably not authentic, right? Mm-hmm. Um, you know, but I think it was just the power of the culture. Mm-hmm. And it inspired so many people. Then again, it might have been kids that were from the suburbs. Mm-hmm. That, you know, like, like you were saying about the, the cosplaying, it was wearing a costume. Yep. Um, and now fast-forward to, uh, 2025, and they’re not the same person that they were dressing up as- Mm-hmm. back then. Um, and so that, that’s where that authenticity that you were- Mm-hmm. talking about is like, wait, that, so that was never who, that was never who you are? And- Mm-hmm. or who you were at all? Like, you’re a totally different person now? How does that, how does that happen? Yeah. And I think, to your point, if, w- we could probably saw through some of that smokescreen back then. Mm-hmm. But because you were friends with people, whatever, you, y- y- and you’re younger, you just, y- that’s not what you’re really thinking about. Mm-hmm. Like, who’s this person really and- Mm-hmm. stuff like that. But then as you get older, and that very much matters with who your friend circle is. Mm-hmm. You know, you, you might have a huge circle that you’re trying to- Mm-hmm. have a smaller circle the older you get. Yeah, 100%. Uh, you know what I mean? Yes. So then it’s like, if you would have just been who you were, then people probably- We would like that. would have still been cool. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, so th- it’s, it’s being comfortable in your, your own skin, you know? Mm-hmm. That’s, that’s, if, if people are not being who they are, not being true to who they are, everyone can tell. Mm-hmm. Um, so it’s uncomfortable for us who are around you when you’re trying to be something you’re not. And then equally for the person that’s putting on that front- Mm-hmm. or that costume that you were talking about. Mm-hmm. It’s like, how uncomfortable are you in that costume? Yeah. You know what I’m saying? And you know, everyone can see this. Like, what are you doing? Right. Like, and, and, and I, I hear, you know, it’s exactly the point I was trying to make, is like, look, everyone, I think, um, would be so much happier if we were all just open-minded to talking to the person that was themselves. Yeah. Right? But so many times they see a face or they see a, a, a style or they see, you know, whatever it is that really puts them in a bucket, and they go, “Nope. No matter what, I’m out. I don’t care about this or I don’t care about that. “Right? Yeah. Both sides of the fence you see that, and it’s so disheartening. Honestly. It’s like- It is. you don’t know, that guy might be your best friend. You don’t, you have no idea. That dude may take a bullet for you. You don’t have, you don’t have any idea. Any idea. But you dismiss that person because of something that, you know, you just defined as what it was. Right. Right? And it’s like you, that part really hurts me, right? That part I truly, like, feel that in my heart, is like, man, I wish that could just, you know, I wish we could find a way to pair that up, right? And I think what you do would be a good avenue to w- really get genuine people, not, “I’m trying to be a little bit of you, and I’m trying to be a little bit of you, and I’m trying”Like that’s, that, to me, I can’t stand. Do not- Like, I don’t want that at all for anybody. Yeah. Right? Like, that just feels, that hurts me in, that gets, that makes my stomach hurt, right? Yeah. Because it feels like, uh, I’m not even me, right? I’m not me, and I’m unsure who I am, so I feel like this person told me I need to be doing this, and this person now told me to do this. And next thing you know, I’ve got this little melting pot of who I am, you know, and it’s not even, it’s not even- Exactly. really me, right? Like, who are you? You don’t know who you are, so I’m not gonna- Right. Why would I jump in, right? Right, right. So, um, I really, I really want to get to the point where it’s like, all these brands that are out there right now, if you’re-I don’t want to call a brand out, but if you’re, if you’re a face-cleansing brand, right? Yeah, yeah. And you’re just about this and all the sudden, “Oh, we need to do this to make sure we’re talking to these people. “Yeah, yeah. Or doing whatever, right? And it’s like, yeah, but is that what you really felt you needed to do? Right. Uh, or do youAre you doing this so you don’t step on a landmine? Ex- exactly. 2 different purposes. It is. Right? Yeah. And if I’m guiding my brand, am I guiding my brand by dollars, which most are. Yeah. And it’s gonna boil down at the end of the day to, is my company making money? Making money. And what can I do to make money as a company? Right? 100% that’s the way it’s gonna be. And s- and if anyone says it’s not, uh, go talk to Bud Light. Man, 100%. Go stand on a mountain and, and scream from the top, when you didn’t have to, right? And you were trying to make a stand on something and you didn’t know who your whole entire fan base was. Right. And then all of a sudden now, not only have you done this, but you have just flipped the script and gone the opposite way. Yeah. Not e- you were here. You didn’t go back to the middle. You went the opposite way. The whole opposite, yeah. And now you’re trying to go as far the other way just to get your, your brand back. Do you know what I mean? That, to me, s- looks so fake. It’s so fake. And I just don’tI don’t know how, I don’t know how to accept that. So what would you do if you were coming into a place and somebody said, “Hey, this is what we suggest doing. You know, this is, this is our brand. We wanna do this or this. “You know what? I would say, like, for example, like, n- with the, with the example you just mentioned there, it, it goes back to what we were saying earlier about your brand DNA and who you are, uh, what you actually stand for as a brand and who your audience is, right? That was such a b- such an avoidable mistake, right? Um, it was, yeah, this is what’s happening in the, in the conversation socially right now. Mm-hmm. Let’s, let’s try to tap into that. Mm-hmm. And then, again, like completely alienating your entire core to reach an audience that’s not going to buy Bud Light, even if that message resonated with them, right? Mm-hmm. Um, you know, so that’sIt, it, it’s, it’s disingenuous, and it’s also, like, like we were talking about the transparency earlier, everyone could, uh, could saw through it as soon as it, a- as soon as stuff like that hit. So I think that’s a real thing. Like, you know, I’ve had experiences where brands have said, you know, “We wanna do this, um, and this is whatTake aCan you take a look at this real quick and, um, let us know your thoughts on this. “And I’ll be like, “Whoa. This hasn’t gone to the client yet, has it? “Yeah. You know? Yeah. And then be like, “Okay, l- let’s get into the war room r- real quick and break down why this is not the right way to go. “Yeah. And, and again, like, I think a lot of times, itWe don’tWe d- we only know what we know, right? Mm-hmm. Like, allWeThere’s nobody that knows everything, right? Mm-hmm. Like, um, you know, we a- we’re not God, right? Mm-hmm. So we’reWeThere’s things that we have to beThat, that’s l- we’re, we’re always learning, right? Mm-hmm. Life is a constant learning process, and if we’re not open to continue to learn and always putting up a, a “I, I know more than everybody else” thing, then w- then we’re never gonna move forward as pe- Mm-hmm. as a, as a individual or as a, uh, community or a collective. So I think that’s the guiding them and just telling them, like, “Hey, this is not your brand. “Right? Mm-hmm. What is your b-What, what are you trying to say here? Mm-hmm. And th- like you said, your brand is here. Mm-hmm. You, you couldn’t just go here. Yeah. You’re trying to go here. Mm-hmm. And how do you think that’s goingLike you said, going back to at the end of the day, it’s all connected back to dollars. How is thisHow does this even connect from a business perspective, let alone a cause perspective, right? Mm-hmm. And if it’s not a purpose that is tied to your brand purpose, then itAgain, it’s likeIt’s a reach. Yeah. And people can see it, and I think that’s the, the, the thing we gotta understand what the audience, especially with the, uh, you know, AI, um, uh, you know, the rise of AI now, there’s so many. Y- you’ll see all these, um, you know, all these pieces of content, whether it’s on, uh, YouTube or whether it’s on, uh, social media, and it’ll be a whole narrative about something that’ll be tugging at your heartstrings. And then you’re like, “Oh, this seems r-T- this is really deep. “And then you’re, you’re like, “It’s fake. “Yeah. You know? It’s not even a real, it’s not even a real story. Mm-hmm. They’re making things up. Um, you know? And so, the, the audience isThe way we can see through AI, I feel like the audience has always been able to see through what, what these brands are doing. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, that’s where, again, like, that representation matters. Mm-hmm. You know, again, it’s not, it’s not about quotas. It’s about actual representation of, of, of d- uh, of diverse voices, you know? Mm-hmm. Um, I was saying something the other day, you know, all these brands want, um, always want cultural relevance and they always wanna be in these cultural, cultural conversations, and there is no cultural relevance without cultural representation, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think that’s s- that’s, that’s something that I, I think the more b- brands, agencies, corporate America looks at it differently, um, and again, instead of demonizing it, looking at it as the advantage it could be to how you could really drive your, your brand forward- Mm-hmm. how you can drive your creativity forward, how you can really connect with that, that audience. ‘Cause the more and more people that are getting hired into the workforce are from Gen Z, and they’re gonna be from gen, uh, gen alpha. Mm-hmm. So, they’re going to have that more diverse perspective. Mm-hmm. Um, and they’re gonna be just m- have, have, um, have, have more cultural diversity, diversity of thought. They’re gonna have more diverse experiences from their diverse friends groups now- Mm-hmm. you know, like we were saying with my, you know, th- this generation, you know? Um, so I think, you know, again, going back to the brand question there, it’s really just, like, does thisWhat, what are you trying to accomplish? Why thisAnd, and if you’re trying to, if you’re trying to go a route that’s outta your, outta your lane, outta your comfort zone- Hm. that’s not necessarily a bad thing, you know? So, I’m never gonna tell a brand, “Nah, you can’t do that,” just because that’s not- Mm-hmm. you’ve never done it. Yeah. All right, you wanna do this, now let’s start digging into the why, the purpose. Is it just a message that you’re putting out or is there a plan for purpose behind that? Are you planning to invest something into these communities that you’re trying to talk to with this brand message? Mm-hmm. Like, what’s beyond the, the, the statement? Mm-hmm. Um, what’s the, what’s the synergy that’s gonna keep this conversation going with that community or that audience you’re trying to, trying to reach? Versus, again, just doing something just to do something, or go one way just because you feel like that’s where you need to go, but you’re missing your, your total core- Yeah. your core market and audience. Mm-hmm. It’s always gonna backfire. Yeah, I mean, you think about those, uh, those brands that are doing that. So, a- are you saying that you would suggest somebody tiptoe into it first? Yeah, I think you gotta test the waters a little bit. Like, a- again, I think it goes back to the brand personality. If it’s, if it’s a brand that can jump, jump in, n- you know, 10 toes in, jump in, you know. Then, because again, then it’s not gonna look like, whoa- Mm-hmm. w- where did this come from? Right. Like this isn’t even who you are, right- Mm-hmm. uh, as a brand. But if it’s a brand that, you know, is like, “Hey, you know, we’re more of a, umWe’re not as vocal as, as a brand when it comes to, um, you know, causes and um-” Mm-hmm. ” s- situations that are going on-” Mm-hmm. ” in, in society. “Like, “We’re more of like”Mm-hmm. ” we’re, we’re a corporation, we’re a brand, we’re gonna stay in our, in, in our safe space. “Mm-hmm. And now it’s like, “Okay, we gotta, we, we wanna step out and, and start going this route. “That’s where I think the, kind of the, you gotta, you gotta crawl before you, uh- Yes. walk and run. Right? Mm-hmm. So, you know, sometimes if you go too heavy with it, then it’s gonna backfire, because like we were saying about the, uh, Bud Light thing, you go so far one way, your core audience is gonna be like, “Psh,” yeah, you gone. Yeah. We boycott. Done. Yeah. Right? Um, so yeah, it’s the, the, uh, crawl, walk, run- Mm-hmm. uh, kind of model I think that they need to, definitely need to take. And that’s how I would definitely guide them. Mm-hmm. Let’s, let’s do something first, is the first step, in the right way. let’s have a plan for what step two and step 3 is. Mm-hmm. So then, when, once step one happens, it’s notIt’s not throwing people off, you know? And, and it may. They may be completely like, “Whoa, where did this come from? “Mm-hmm. But if you have another step in place that’s gonna support and- Mm-hmm. uh, reaffirm why step one was made, and then there’s a step 3 beyond that that shows that con- continuity and that, that commitment to whatever the cause is that you’re trying to, um, have a conversation on or tap into, that’s when the authenticity and the credibility comes through, right? Mm-hmm. Then it’s not like, okay, this is a corporation that made a statement because they had to- Yeah. or, um, you know, it was the right thing to do. Mm-hmm. It’s because they, it’s because they want to do this and they’re doing it the right way- Mm-hmm. versus doing it performative, you know? Yeah, and I think the performatively is, is the thing that catches most people, right? They’re like, “Man, you, this doesn’t feel right. “It doesn’t feel, uh, like you’re just trying to be a solid human being or a solid person, right? It just feels like you’re trying to do something ’cause you feel like it’s gonna sway the community. And that actually, I think, backfires more times than not. 100%. Um, and I think about all these brands that are out there, like, uh, Cracker Barrel, right? Yeah. Cracker Barrel goes and changes this thing up and, and, uh, or, you know, there, there’s a laundry list of these guys, right? Yeah. Th- that have gone through and done this. And it’s like, they go out and do this for a purpose and they, uh, they forget who their audience is, right? They forget what this is about. And it has to do with, like, some younger CMO or some younger CEO coming in and they’re like, “I’m changing it. I’m carrying the flag for, for this whatever. “And it’s like, well, hang on a second, you know? Let’s think about what we’ve built here for the last 40 years or 50 years. Or, you know, now think about the syrup that had to change its bottle, right? Yeah. It’s like, nothing was racist about that at all. That was so cool. Like, people loved that, you know? Uh, um-Washington changing their football team. Right, right. Right? There’s people on both sides of that that just loved it, you know? “You’re standing up for us. You’re, we’re, we’re the name of your team,” or whatever, and then there’s somebody on the other side ain’t got no kind of connection to it whatsoever is like, “No, no, we gotta get rid of it. “You know? It’s like, wh- why are you mad? Right, right, right. You know what I mean? So I feel like there’s so many situations out there where someone else is carrying the flag-for someone. Yeah. Right? And that causes the disingenuousness, the, um, the role-playing or the, uh, the person that seems to be not, not doing something for, um, what’s best for the company, but they seem to be just as an individual trying to stand up, right? Are you saying that any time you get into this, you need to think about who you are as a company, but is this good for your brand? Yeah. Absolutely. The cr- the Cracker Barrel, um, example that you mentioned, I, I’m s- I’m still confused as to why they decided to change this. And one thing I thought that was very f- very telling was when, you know, the, the conversation was happening on social media. Mm-hmm. Like you said, you got somebody that’s probably like a younger CMO or something that’s like, “This is, this is so old school. We need to- Right. make it more current,” uh, yada yada, right? The funniest comment I saw about that was, you know, getting like a, aI don’t, I, I’ve never worked cr- Cracker Barrel, so I don’t know what their, what their intent was, but it seemed like the intent was, okay, this is kind of a outdated- Mm-hmm. uh, logo. Maybe less inclusive. Yeah. I, I don’t know. Right. So then, then they switched it for that, right? And one of the funniest comments I s- read about it was somebody saying like, uh, obviously this was like a, a joke- Yeah. but they said something about, uh, along the lines of the, the logo with the old white guy, the racism was what, why we liked being in there. And again-they wereIt was a joke, right? Uh-huh. Like, it’s not like you go to Cracker Barrel and then, uh it’s like that. But they were saying it’s part, like that, that old man was like kind of part of the experience you go to that’s on the logo just from a branding perspective. Right. It’s kind of what you’reIt’s the world you’re walking into- Right. in Cracker Barrel. Mm-hmm. So taking it off was like, well, what’s your brand even, what does it even stand for now? What does it represent? Right? Um, and a- a- again, I think like with stuff like you mentioned with like, you know, the, the, the syrups, um, the, uh, the football team, you know, the Redskins and stuff like that, it’s who, it’s whoseIt, it’s, it’s also asking like, well, who’s getting upset about this? Right. Um, you, you know what I mean? Like, where is this conversation coming from? Because a lot of times now too we see that a lot of these conversations that are starting on social aren’t even being started by people in the US. It’s somebody in some other country- Mm-hmm. that is talking like they’re- Mm-hmm. American and they’re saying completely divisive shit. And it’s likeAnd then, then that, that sparks, you know, conversation on social that goes viral, and it’s not even somebody, it’s not even a real person- Mm-hmm. in the US star- starting this. So it’s like, it’s all this, like, fake stuff that’s happening on social. So you’re always like wondering like, where is this getting triggered from? Mm-hmm. Like, was itBecause again, if it was, you know, a specific community that felt like that they were, that, you know, whatever the campaign was or the brand was, that it, it was offensive to them and it- Mm-hmm. was the community that was speaking out about it, that’s one thing. But when we can’t pinpoint like, you know, sometimes who’s starting these conversations that are creating divide, especially in this cl- you know, the climate we’re, we’re in right now, there’s so much more that connects us than divides us. And that’s where- Mm-hmm. it’s like, you know, man, if we could just get, get, cut through the noise and the clutter of where these divisive comments and, um, conversations are s- are being sparked- Yeah. and then like you said, actually talking to real people- Yeah. and having those conversations with them- Mm-hmm. and understanding, it’s a total different- Mm-hmm. it’s a total different world, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I don’t, I just don’t think every comment needs to be answered. No. You know? There’s always gonna be comments like that. There’s, it’svalid. That’s true. Right? And there’s, it’s trolls, like- It’s trolls. they’re people that are just, that’s all they do. Mm-hmm. Like, they’re just waiting for this to happen, a brand to post or, or a, a celebrity to post, whoever. And they’re gonna just jump in the comments and just- Yeah. be the, just be that, that person, right? Like, and like you said, responding to things that are, uh, that you shouldn’t respond to- Mm-hmm. is just feeding the, feeding the trolls. Feeding the beast. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Well, the, the worst part about all of this is, like you said, the old white man getting taken off the cracker barrel. Yeah. Or, um, I can’t even remember what the syrup, uh, is it Aunt Jemima? Yeah. Is it Aunt Jemima? Aunt Jemima, yep. It’s like we’re watering down America. We’re making it so vanilla, so oatmeal- Yeah. that everyone can taste it, right? And there’s no flavor to it anymore. No, yeah. And it’s okay to be the old white man, and it’s okay to be Aunt Jemima. Yeah. And it’s okay to be the Redskins. It should be okay to be you, and you put something out there that personifies you as an individual is amazing. And it should be okay to be you. Yeah. And I can’t be okay to be me if I’m not you. Right. That’s a horrible part, right there, is like, no, no, I’m okay to be me, but you can’t be you is the worst scenario that we should all go do. That’s not connectivity. It’s not. That’s not connection. You know what I mean? It’s not. That, that, what I would love to see is the same culture that we grew up in, which was like, it’s all of us. Yeah. Right? And it’s okay that when I go stand in a crowd of Buns, right? Yep. And I’m one of few, I’m cool with everybody, nobody mess with me. Yes. And if I take somebody else and I bring them s- with me, there’s no issues whatsoever. Right? Because you ve- you’re supposed to be, you’re supposed to be there. Yeah. I’m supposed to be there, right? The, or why would I not? Right, right. That’s what it should be down to. Why, why, why not? E- exactly, man. Exactly. And, you know, there’s been brands, you know, you’re talking about with these rebrands, um, and everything too, and I’ve worked on some of those. Mm-hmm. And was trying to guide them in terms of, okay, so you’re doing this rebrand, and you’re not doing it the right way. So if you’ve already, you’ve already, now, now you already, it’s out the door. So now you can’t say, “All right. Well, we’re not rebranding now. “Right? So you’re already out the door, but you didn’t go out the right way when you were trying to do it in the first place, right? Mm-hmm. So now you’re trying to overexplain things because you’ve underexplained them- Mm-hmm. as to why the, the brand was changed- Mm-hmm. outside of from the, the climate, the, and the conversation that was happening, right? Mm-hmm. Um, so there’s no, uh, again, there’s that, there’s not that, that step-by-step plan to- Mm-hmm. from rebrand to, okay, what’s next after we’ve done this? Mm-hmm. Obviously, this is gonna piss people off. Mm-hmm. Some people are gonna be happy. Mm-hmm. This is, uh, you know, where do we find the common, the, the, the middle ground, right? Yeah. Um, and so not having those, those next steps is like, it’s branding 101, right? Like how did you not have the step beyond- Yeah. the, the rebrand- Mm-hmm. to say, okay, this is why we rebranded, to have consistent communication going out- Yeah. you know, to address those? You know, again, like you said- Mm-hmm. not answering every one of the comments, but- Mm-hmm. that you had messaging to knowing that, okay, now we’ve gone out the door with this, this is probably what’s gonna happen from this side. Mm-hmm. This is probably what’s gonna happen on the other side. How do we sh- have communications- Mm-hmm. ready for both of these audiences to, to engage with them- Mm-hmm. so we don’t lose one of them and we can get them to, you know, back to that kind of middle- Yeah. middle ground? And so that’s, I mean, again, it’s just, it- it- it’s, it’s embarrassing that- Mm-hmm. you know, companies can be this large and not have thought this, thought this stuff through. Um, and I think, uh, uh, a lot of times too, we get, we start to become an easily offended, uh, society. Culture, community, yeah. Right, yeah, you know? And, you know, you think to back when, like we were saying, when we were growing up, you know, like the diversity. Like I’m just thinking back to like, you know, Power Corps baseball- Mm-hmm. and, uh, you know, soccer, and, um, you know, sports we play together and how diverse that was. Um, and that’s where like kind of y- that, that connection and we don’t s- you know, we’re, we’re seeing people for who they, for who they are, then, we’re, it, there was some truth to that, right? Mm-hmm. Like, you know, you hear that now and it’s almost like, all right, that sounds like bullshit. But back then it was like- Yes. we weren’t thinking about those things- None. because we were kids, when we were innocent, right? And so we just think about, man, these are the kids I like playing with, these are my fa- I was on the playground with these guys yesterday or doing this or- Yeah. man, seesaw or volleyball or whatever, like we’re doing all that kind of crap together. And it’s just like, that kind of bled into thebut I think it’s when it starts to fade away as you get older, you start to f- like again, you fall into those silos. Exactly. Comfortable silos. Comfortable silos. That, man. And, and you go to work and you come home and you listen to whatever news channel it is that you think is the popular one, but it’s being sponsored by somebody. Yep. Right? And then all of a sudden you get on that train and it’s a rinse and repeat every day until you’re brainwashed. 100%. And you stop having conversations with each other and you stop having real, real deep thought-provoking conversations with people. And unless you have those things and can ask questions and have someone on the other side reach back out to you and say, “Oh, well, I just don’t feel that,” and you can’t listen, first off, without talking. You can’t listen to what they Oh, wow. And then pause and let them get it all out. And then you go and take your turn without elevating your voice just enough so you can have a real conversation with people. Until we get to that point like, “Oh, we’re doing is over talking each other the entire time. “That’s it. Watering down the situations. These brands come out there and they want to just take a middle road every single time and now, can you imagine as watered down as we’re making all of this stuff? Can you imagine if you’d gone to New Orleans and said, “You can’t use that spice. “And you go to some place in the South and say, “You can’t use that spice. “And you go to someplace up north and you can’t use that and go to some place in Mexico and say, “You can’t use jalapenos. “Like, can you imagine? Just taking everything away. You’re taking all these great things that make us all different and you’re taking ’em away. Yeah. You know, and everybody’s like, “Well, what am IThis is, this is a staple for us. “No, no, no. I can’t use that. That’s not, that’s not for everybody. It’s not for everybody. Well, who decides what’s for everybody? I’m just talking about how am I gonna, this meal, you know? And those are the things that are great about life, right? Yeah. Those are the things that are great about community and the friends that we make. Um, I went to, uh, when I was 20 or 22, I went and worked for a minister named Tony Evans, all black church, monster church in Dallas. Um, I was one of 2 white people in the whole place. Whole place. And I, I was cool with it. I walked in. I knew where, I knew where my place was and they walked in. They loved me and they said, “Hey Brandon, look, we’re gonna go eat at this place called Mothers and Daughters. “I said, “Okay. “It’s an old place that’s been around Dallas for a long time. And they say, “You ever had catfish? “And I said, “Yeah, catfish. What are you talking about? “Yeah, I’m country. I’m talking about catfish. And they said, “Well, come on down. We’re gonna show you how to have some catfish over here. “And I said, “Okay, I’m down. “So we start walking down there and uh, I order some catfish and there’s all these like famous people over the wall. And I was like, “Oh, this is crazy. “We sit down and they hand me a bottle of Tabasco. And I was like, “What’s this for? “They’re like, “All over, all over it. “All over the place. Mix it in your tartar, do it, mix it up. “And I was like, “I’m not ruining this catfish with that. “And they were like, “Do it. “I did. I’ve never not eaten it that way. Ever since, I’ve eaten it that way, ever since the rest of my life. I’m telling my friends and my family, try this, try this, try this. I would have never had that. That would have never been my favorite part of that thing if I’d have just not gone and not experienced that. Yeah. And not walked into another life and not done some things differently. Those conversations we have with someone that may have figured something out that you just, you or your family has not. Doesn’t mean it’s wrong because you or your family haven’t just means y’all haven’t experienced it. And yet you hadn’t had the opportunity to say, “I don t like that. “You know? So if y’all ain’t tried no catfish with some Tabasco on that bad boy mixed in your tartar sauce, it’s pretty good. Gotta try it. Gotta try it. No, you’re right. Like what you just said there too. Like it’s, it’s those experiences that bring us together. Right? Like um, and I think that you know as you know as you know marketers that shaped our perception about how we should, how we should get brands to operate, how we should get our companies to operate um and everything too. Like it’s, it’s that, it’s that connection. Like there’s something about connecting with people and again experiencing something that you hadn’t experienced you know um that, that changes your worldview. That changes who you are. That can influence your personality um that can change everything you know and I think like when we don’t appreciate those or don’t take or don’t make time to have those experiences. Um and I know it’s hard you know that you know when we’re younger we have nothing but time you know what I’m saying but now that we’re you know when we’re older everybody got responsibilities and sometimes it’s like prioritizing that but um you know I always say travel is um you know experiencing those cultures through travel is one of the greatest things you could um you could do. Like every time I travel somewhere, um, you know, to another country, I, umUh, I mean, I’ll even take this, uh, uh, skills lower, e- e- even when I’m traveling around the US. Every time I’m in a different state, different city, I want to try the local. Mm-hmm. Uh, everything local. I want to go to the mom and pop spots. I want to go to theI don’t want to go to the chain restaurants. Right. I want to go to the local spots, I want to have the local beer. Why is that? Because it’s m- It feelsIt, it makes me feel like I’m connected to that, that community now. Mm-hmm. Like that I’m not coming in there and saying like, “Oh yeah, let me get that, that Bud Light,” or whatever. I’m like- Yeah. “What’s the, what’s the local brewery? What, what local beer do you have? “Or if it’s, you know, uh, bourbon, whatever it may be- Yeah. whoThe local restaurant. Like, you know, I want thoseI want to sit there and, and a lot of times I’ll go to these pl- places by myself because I just want to sit there and talk to the people there. Mm-hmm. I want to talk to the bartender. I want to talk to the, the, uh, the cook or the chef- Yeah. Mm-hmm. uh, the people working there and just understand, you know, thatTo me, that’s justIt’s, it’sUh, maybe it’s partially selfish but, but- Mm-hmm. uh, because it, it feel, it feels like it pours so much into me. But I feel like on the flip side of that, you know, those relationships you start building with those people, it’s like the next time you come back there, uh, you ca- You, you gonna go check outYou’re probably gonna stop in that spot again. Mm-hmm. Or go to another local, uh, place, you know? Mm-hmm. While I’ve been in Dallas, um, a couple of my, uh, really good friends have taken me out to, you know, a lot of the local music scene here. And I noticed like the last 2 nights, um, that it was the same, like a, a similar community at these, at these different places. Mm-hmm. And again, I just came in, uh, for the first time in this community, um, uh, you know, Saturday, right? Mm-hmm. So thisOn Sunday I saw some of these same people and they were like, “Oh, what’s going on? “Like so, uh, so like I feel like that, that’s something you can’t put a price on, you know? Mm-hmm. That, that connection you have with people because you’re open to experiencing other cultures- Mm-hmm. other people, other communities. Um, and the more we embrace those other cultures, those other communities in our country and outside- Mm-hmm. internationally too, the more connection we, we build. And the, the more we embrace it, the more they embrace us. Mm-hmm. Um, and I just feel like, you know, again, that’s something to me that is just paramount. Like, you know, having those ex- I think having those experiencesYou know, if you’re traveling with a group of friends, do, you know, definitely do that with your friends. But I feel like that, that experience you can have by yourself sometimes- Mm-hmm. is just such a dope experience, man. Yeah. Like it, it, it really grounds you and, um, you know, really connects you with those communities that you’re in. Are youIf you’re leaning towards types of brands that you want to work with, uh, is there a bullseye? Is it, you know, the music industry? Is it clothing and fashion? Like kind of where, where do you lean? Because I heard you say Wendy’s and I was thinking like, “Oh, that’s not what I would have thought at, at the very beginning,” but- Yeah. you know? Okay. It’s a, it’s a mix. So like, you know, when I was, you knowUm, you know, I started on the agency side, um, on a multi-cul- on a multicultural agency in Chicago. And, you know, we were working on all the major brands, you know, everything from Honda, Coors Light, McDonald’s, um, you know, all the major brands. Jack Daniels, um, but it was multicultural, right? So, you know, it was very heavily fo- campaigns focused and marketing focused on, uh, the Black community and Hispanic community. Um, so with a, with a lot of those campaigns, um, again, it was brands that, you know, weren’tP- probably had the deepest connection with some of those communities. Like, uh, you know, again, just mentioning off the top, Coors Light and Jack Daniels- Mm-hmm. you don’t typically think, “Oh, that’s going to be at the hip-hop shows. “Yeah, yeah. Or, umUh, uh, you know, places like that. But that’s where I met Bun-you know, was through Coors Light. It was a, um, a campaign we were doing that was a hip-hop campaign- Yeah. for Coors Light. It was called Search For The Coldest. And, um, it was with Ice Cube, uh, DJ Drama and, uh- Mm. and Bun. And, you know, thatA- again, it was Coors Light and hip-hop, so it just seemed like 2 totally different worlds- Yeah. but it just made so much, so much sense. Um, and I gotta, you know, shout out our boy, um, Rex Cruise, um, he wa- uh, me and him were partners on that, um, on that- The Karate Kid. that campaign. Yeah. He, he mad. The Karate Kid. The Karate Kid. Um, but that was, I think, where, you know, kind of cracking those codes on how to really make these brands connect in culture. I remember after the first year, this was 2012 that me and Rex worked on, um, Search For The Coldest at 2 different agencies. And, um, and we, we just connected the same way, like you and me connected through Gunbar, you know? We just vibed immediately. And then for the second, for the next year, 2013, we were talking about, you know, we were starting to go in and planning for it. And I remember I was talking to my client at that time. We were driving back from, uh, we were driving from Bristol. We were doing ESPN with Cube. Mm-hmm. And we were driving to, uh, to New York for the finale of this, uh, event. And we’re driving there and we’re talking to these like, you know, we’re talking about, “Who, who should we get for next year? Who should we have for the, for the, uh, tour next year? “And so we’re talking about, you know, big names like, you know, Nas is being mentioned, Eminem is being mentioned. And I’m like, “Yeah, those are, are big names,” you know? Mm-hmm. But then me and Rex were like, “Let’s bring our teams together. “And, umAnd shout out my boy Terrell also. Um, and we brought our teams together. and sat down, and we just sat there and, and said, okay, this has to work on a PR perspective, which is what, what my team was doing. Yep. And then on their side, it was, you know, the experience advertising events. And so we were like, “Okay, how are weThis is the audience we’re trying to hit. Do these big name legacy artists make the most sense? “You know, like, uh, that Nas and Eminem were 2 of the goats, you know? Mm-hmm. And, you know, Nas is, you know- Mm-hmm. and Pac are my favorite MCs, so if I could have done a tour with Nas, I’m- I’m out. usually gonna be like, “Yeah, let’s figure that out. “Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But then we start thinking about it, like, okay, we got Bun, we got Cube, we got DJ Drama. You know, B-Bun and Cube l- legacy- Mm-hmm. legends, right? Mm-hmm. Um, and Drama has that, you know, has that connection with the legacy and the, and the newer- Mm-hmm. artists too, with Gangsta Grillz and everything. So we started just thinking, how do we w- uh, what, what could we do to really connect with this, this audience at Coors Light try to tap into? And instead of going that legacy route, we said, “Let’s bring in a, uh, a newer generation of artists. “So we looked at, you know, we brought in Big Sean, um, you know, Juicy J, Pusha T, um, French Montana, and then paired that with Cube- Mm-hmm. Drama, and, and Bun. And it just worked s- so well. I, I mean, I always tell people this story. Me and Rex were doing a walkthrough in New York for that finale event, this was the second year in 2013 when we decided to go this, this new route. Mm-hmm. And, I mean, and this was a eight city tour, I think. Every city, whether it was raining, pouring rain, it’s in the summer, hot as hell outside, there’s lines around the block, t- trying to get in here. Yeah. And I, me and Rex always joke about this. In 2013, we’re sitting in there and we get a call saying Justin Bieber wants to pull up, and we’re like, “What? “Justin Bieber’s not even 21. Like- Uh-huh. how is itBut he wanted to be there because he had heard about it, and he was trying to, I think, I think, uh, I think he wanted to work with DJ Drama at that- Mm-hmm. at that time. And so, that just made us realize how big this thing had gotten if Justin Bieber, who’s one of the biggest celebrities on the planet- Yeah. or artists on the planet, has heard about this thing- Yeah, yeah, yeah. and is, is trying to be there. And, you know, that, I think is how we started, you know, just kind of looking at those brands again and being like, okay, like you were saying with the, the, uh, you know, the dream brands, with some brands I’ve worked on, like, that you’re saying I wouldn’t expect that, that’s where it’s like kind of that mix. On the agency side, it’s always gonna be, uh, those, those brands that are, you know, that you wouldn’t think are, are supposed to be hidden in culture- Mm-hmm. and how do you make it hidden culture? Um, so that was always, to me, was fun because it was such a challenge. Like, how do you make these brands that typically aren’t in these conversations, how do you make them connect? Mm-hmm. Um, on the flip side of that, wh- when you were saying, like, brands I’ve, like, you know, that I would typically, like, I guess, my kind of dream collaborators, I would say it’s kind of a mix of what you were talking about from a categories perspective. Um, fashion, music, sports, that’s where I’ve always kind of f- found a common ground is how to connect all, all of those, um, all of those lanes. Mm-hmm. Like, for Honda, for example, Honda, um, I was working on a program for Honda called the Honda Battle of the Bands. Um, they call it the Super Bowl of, um, marching bands. It’s this HBCU- Mm-hmm. marching band, um, experience. Um, it used to be in the, um, in the Georgia Dome, um, every year. This past year, I think it was in, uh, at Sofi in, um, LA. Mm-hmm. Um, but this program, when I first saw it, it was one of the first programs I worked at when I started, um, in, in, uh, PR. And I, I had never been to an HBCU marching band competition before then, and I was just totally- Blown away? blown away by it. Yep. I w- I was like, man, the level of not only the, the musicianship, but the- Choreography. the choreography- Yeah. um, theI mean, it was just such a preciseI, I was just amazed by it. Um, and, and it was just so d- it was so dope, and I remember hearing the client was always saying, from the first time I worked on it, “We wanna get in the New York Times. We wanna get in the New York Times. “And I was like, “Man, this is an amazing program,” but I was like, “I don’t know if the story is beingif we’re telling the story right for it even to get on the New York Times radar. “Mm-hmm. So at that time, it was a very traditional PR campaign, and I was like, social media was likebrands were just starting to tap intolike, not even really tap into it, just, like, turning on, like, a social channel and- Mm-hmm. trying to play in that space. I was like, hey, there’s all these communities that are popping up that are, like, unofficial communities- Mm-hmm. for the Honda Battle of the Bands on Facebook and- Yeah. everywhere. We need to s- we need to takeharness this and ch- transition this from a traditional PR program to a social driven program- Mm-hmm. where the community’s already existing, the conversation’s already going, and create official channels to bring these conversations into. And once we did that, you know, it was that, and then it was also, like, from a c- you know, from a entertainment perspective, Def Jam, um, I’d, uhMy good friend who was the, the head of marketing at Def Jam at the time, and so we were talking one day, and, uh, he was like, “What are you working on? “And I was like, you know, “We got this, we got this,” and he’s like, “We should figure out something for this Honda thing. “And we created a partnership with Def Jam that went on for multi-years- Mm-hmm. where they started bringing in their biggest performers, you know, the artists that, that were coming out, um, through Def Jam, and th- so it was huge, huge acts that were coming and headlining this. So now we had everything from a, athe whole social conversation being driven, then you come into this, uhand that, and that conversation, um, so through the social media channels started becoming the number one ticket, ticket driver. So we’re selling out the Georgia Dome, we’re having this e- amazing performance by, you know, everyone from, you know, uh, Big Sean to the Dream, uh, Monica, Brandy, um, Ludacris, everybody, right? And then, and then you have this amazing HBCU marching band experience. Mm-hmm. Now we’ve gone from, how do we get the New York Times to, to think about this, how do we get on their radar? The New York Times hit me and said, “Hey, we wanna cover this. Can w-” and it was a reporter who happened to be an HBCU graduate that was familiar with the Honda Battle of the Bands, and she had been seeing all this going on because of the social conversation- Mm-hmm. and everything. And so she actually came down to Atlanta and, you know, gave them full, you know, behind the scenes, um, experience, and then, you know, we’re trending number 3 g- worldwide on Twitter during the event, and then the Hon- and then the New York Times full page print spread, digital spread, and social media coverage. Mm-hmm. And that was the last year I worked on that program, so, uh, it was kind of like a, a mic drop moment, but not like a, yeah, I told you so. Uh-huh. It wasit was a culmination of something that, you know, that I was able to start building there, and then growing with a team, um, of very dope individuals that, that- Mm-hmm. came in to work on this, uh, program with me. And so it was the culmination of that, and then seeing the fruits of our labor and our hard work, do what they’d been saying they wanted to have done- Yeah. um, you know, for ten years prior to that we- when I first started working on it. Uh, so those moments I think are, like, when, when it’s like, that’s how you break through. Mm-hmm. That’s how you break through culture, you know? How you make these brands that wouldn’t be involved in these conversations and in these communities really feel connected, you know? Mm-hmm. And I think Honda, you know, as a brand, and, you know, a- has done that well, you know, they, uh, you know, that Honda Battle of the Bands had been going onthat was the 15th year, I think, when I was working on it- Mm-hmm. the last year, so, you know, it’s 2025 now. Um, so I think brands that stay invested in these, uh, programs and don’tthat, that’s the thing, something that m- we, people don’t like seeing, is when these program, whe- regardless of what culture it is, when these programs that had so much resonance and, um, a- and, um, relevance to these communities, when they get cut- Mm-hmm. it’s like, why did you cut this program, you know? Yeah. And again, it’s always business decisions and stuff like that on the back end, but, um, that’s where I think, again, that cultural connectivity and that, that credibility really could be built. Mm-hmm. And at that point too, I mean, I guess someone else picking it up and doing battle , excuse me, Battle of the Bands and, you know, re-sponsoring it, is, is not an option, or I guess at some points, ’cause you’ve already got some, uh, inner workings with those companies that it was theirs. Yep. You know? And so, um, and notno, no one really owns that except for the, the marketing dollar behind, uh, Honda that was pushing it, right? Exactly. So when, when they s- when they decide it’s over, it’s really over for a community. It’s not really over for, you know, just their budget or whatever. It’s over for a community. That’s the thing. Mm-hmm. That’s the thing. And it’s, and it’s almost likeand, and not almost, it’s, it’s, uh, devastating, because it’s something that a lot of these communities look forward to every year. Mm-hmm. Um, and, you know, this is something that you’re almost expecting to happen without, without hiccup, likeMm-hmm. you know, that it’s always gonna happen, you know, barring things like COVID and stuff like that. Right? But, um, you know, outside of that, it’s something that you, you always looking for that con- continuity with it. Mm-hmm. Um, and again, it’s, it’s, it’s marketing and it’s a brand world, so nothing’s gonna last forever, right? Yeah. Um, so that’s the, that’s the thing, is like, figuring out when things have run their course- Mm-hmm. and if a brand is gonna-cut it or clip it. It’s like, okay, well n- what’s next? You know, what- Mm-hmm. what’s next? You k- you, you can’t stop e-engaging with this audience that you built a, a rapport with. Right. Um, you’re gonna lose that from a, from a, from a business perspective. You’re, that, that money’s not, that revenue’s not gonna keep coming in- Mm-hmm. if you’re not continuing to engage that- Yeah. that audience. Um, so that, that’s something that, a fine line they gotta walk with it, you know? Like, you know, whereLike, again, nothing lasts forever, but the, the relationships should. Yeah. The, the connection or the c- continuity should, even if it’s, uh, in a different iteration. Yeah. Yeah, sometimes people can, I guess, potentially try to pick those things up and run with them if somebody’s dropped the ball somewhere and- Yep. You know? I mean, generally it’s someone in the community and then it has to pick up wave again, and someone really has to own it. When it becomes a corporation who owns it, it’s not really owned, it’s just a thing, it’s a, it’s a vehicle. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Um, when it’s someone’s baby, they pass it down and they pass it down again. That’s true. And it goes, and the next person steps up and picks it up, and that’s generational, right? Versus- Generational. uh, when a, when a big corporation picks it up, it’s, you know, for the tenure that someone’s there, right? That, that’s exactly it. That’s exactly it. And, you know, like, like I said, Honda, you know, I think has done a good job with the Honda Battle of the Bands on that. Um, there’s a, uh, group I’m, uh, work with, um, that has this program called Art Beats & Lyrics. Mm-hmm. Um, that Jack Daniel’s has been behind for, uh, Jack Daniel’s Tennessee Honey has been behind it, uh, as a partner for multiple y- It’s now in its 21st year. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and this is something that you would absolutely love. Uh, it’s a mix of art, hip hop and culture. Mm. Um, so these, uh, sh- shout out my guys, uh, W, uh, Jabari and, uh, Cat, uh, from, um, Art Beats & Lyrics. They’ve done this amazing event for 21 years and it’s built so much, so much cultural currency and credibility. Mm-hmm. I mean, it, it had the, the credibility obviously built into it, but the cultural currency it’s built for Jack, Jack Daniel’s, uh, I think is, uh, speaks volumes. 21 years and, you know, we just did the Chicago event, um, in October. Mm-hmm. And this was at Navy Pier there. Um, so, know, to have an event like this at a place like, you know, a, a venue like a Navy Pier says, uh, enough for it in itself. Mm-hmm. But these things are, you know, every, every ci- You know, it’s a national tour. Every market is always packed. Mm-hmm. Always sold out. But it’s just such, it’s such a dope experience because it’s all these artists. They have hu- They create these huge art installations, and so it’s immersive where you can like walk through the art installation and really like experience the- Mm-hmm. the art too, and it’s like 3D art and- Yeah. it’s super dope. And then they always have, you know, um, a performance. So, you know, there’s been years where it’s been Scarface, where it’s been Bon. Um, this year in Chicago it was the Cool Kids. Mm-hmm. Uh, they had AZ in New York, um, a couple, uh, I think last year. So it’s like a, it’s like these classic artists or, you know, with the, you know, um, that, that are paired with, with the, the visual artists. Mm-hmm. And it’s just an amazing, amazing experience. But I say all that to say for stuff like that to last for 21 years, the Honda Battle of the Band’s going on for over 20 years, there is something there that, you know, is, is, is strong enough for the brand to keep going. Mm-hmm. But it’s also, the com- is strong enough with the community to keep- Mm. to keep it going that these thingsYou know, I, I, people were, when I was telling people, “Oh yeah, this Art Beats & Lyrics event is, uh, this weekend,” some of my friends were hitting me like, “Oh man, I’m outta town, I’m so mad. I know the whole city’s gonna show up. “Uh-huh. Because everyone just knows it’s gonna be packed- Yeah. every, every city. So that, has, th- there’s, that, that says something. You know what I mean? Yeah. What cities do they go through? Sorry? What cities do they go through? They go to, uh, all over the, um, all over the country. It’s been in Dallas before. Actually, the last time I was in Dallas- Hmm. was 2017 and it was here. Okay. Um, but it’s been, uh, this year it’s been I think in Charlotte. um, they were just in Houston and they did Chicago before Houston. Mm-hmm. And those are the tour markets for this year, and then it’s continuing in, um, 2026, um, in markets likeI, I, um, I can’t remember if it’s coming back to Dallas, but it’s gonna be in, like, New York. So, all over the- Yeah. the, the country. Um, in At- Atlanta where they’re, they’re based also. So, it goes all over the- Mm-hmm. um, country. So, um, itBut it, but again, I think it’s just that it, it’s a testament to the, to theto what wor-when something’s working, keep it going. Yeah. You know? If, if it’s working, keep it going and keep reinventing it, you know? Um, keep, keep adding something new to it, keep adding things that maythat keep the excitement going. Mm-hmm. On top of the, you know, just knowing that it’s coming back. Mm-hmm. Like, you know, that’s like, you know, the, the X factor there, you know? I remember you guys invited me to, umIt was a concert at Art Basel one time. It was, uh, Swizz Beatz and, um, 2 Chainz wasHe was- Oh. When Swizz Beatz does the give back for the artists and everything else. Yeah, yeah,Uh, and man, just walking into that placefirst, it was really cool that they had a concert on one side, and then on the other side is this art gallery. Yep. You know? And then the middle’s, like, all these different, like, eclectic, likeThere’s a barber shop and there’s a tattoo shop and there’s all these things that are going on on the inside of this thing, and I thought, “This is the coolest thing I’ve ever, I’ve ever seen. “Right? Because it’s like, “Yeah, I love hearing the music, but I can drift off over here and step into a completely different world and see some-” Different world. And to have that much volume of people going through and seeing all the artwork as an artist, like, that’s, that’s the hardest thing to get, is like- Oh, it’s beautiful. face-to-face exposure on a scroll is one. Like you said when you walked in the shop, man, it’s one thing to see this thing on, on a video or pictures, but it’s likeBut walking in, like, you can feel it. It’s a whole new experience. You’re walking into the world that you’ve- Yeah. created. Right? Yeah. Like, yeah. That’s, that’s it. You know? ThatAnd I think that’s theThat’s something that we’ve always prided ourselves on. You know? Like, um, going back to, like, you know, talking about, you know, stuff Rex and I have worked on, um, stuff I work on, uh, through my company, it’s always been about the experiences we can, um- Mm-hmm. curate. Right? Like, you want people to come to these events and to walk away saying exactly what you just said- Mm-hmm. “This is the coolest shit I’ve ever seen. “Mm-hmm. And, and again, like, being in one room and feeling like you’re in a total different environment than the rest of the- Right. uh, the rest of the event. That’s aThere’s s- there’s something about that. Mm-hmm. And, you know, all of my guys, you know, um, from, from the side that we’ve worked on stuff like this, that’s, that’s something we’re alwaysit’s always like the mainstay. It’s, “Okay, we know whatYou know, we, we know what needs to bewhat we need to hit from a brand perspective and everything, from a brand te-touchpoint perspective, but what are the other pieces we can bring in that connect the brand-” Mm-hmm. ” from a different touchpoint perspective-” Yeah. ” that’s not just a sampling or a,” you know, whatever it may be? It’s like, again, like connecting it to fashion, or connecting it to music, or whatever- Mm-hmm. whatever other cultural avenue you can connect it to to make that experience something- Mm-hmm. that people won’t forget. Yeah. What’s next for you? Man, thinkYou know, forWhat’s next for me is continuing to, um, you know, build my, um, my, my company through, um, through the work I’m doing with the Culture Connextion, um, continuing to work with brands and, um, agencies and, um, talent. Um, really, I think shaping what’s next is, uh, the way I really look at it. Um, you know, that’sYou know, the brand identity of the Culture Connextion is theI intentionally had next in the connection, uh, uh, word, in the, uh, brand name. And I think even for me, it wasThat, that’s what it was always about. Like, you know, seeing what brands were looking to do now and figuring out, “Okay, this is what we’re gonna do now. how does what we do now lead to what’s next? “So, that’s something for me is, you know, really pushingcontinuing to push culture forward, um, you know, um, fighting for, um, cultural representation, for that diversity of, um, of perspectives and thought. Um, you know, making the case for why, you know, it needs to A- and not, not even making a case, showing and proving why, why it’s important, you know? Mm-hmm. Just gettingIt’s aReally working with, with the companies to get to that understanding that we were talking about earlier. So, it’s not just a one-way conversation. It’s a- Mm-hmm. “Let’s sit down and talk and figure out where you’re trying to go and how we can help get you there and do it the right way. “Yeah. Not do it with the one-off way. You know, just really wanting to make connected experiences, um- Mm-hmm. a- across the board. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I can tell. Like, the one thing that I, I really hope that, uh, people get to see is kind of where your heart’s at on, on a lot of these issues and a lot of, uh, where you’re trying to drive things. And, I know it’s not from a selfish position. I know it’s from a position of love. So, um- Appreciate that. Uh, just knowing you guys, you know, for as long as I’ve known you guys, it’s, uh, you know, the way you guys have taken me in and, and, and vice versa, you know- Yeah. has been, an example of that, you know, and, and to see that. So, uh, I know that you guys will do it the right way and, definitely be sending people to your front doorstep. That’s for sure. Man, I appreciate that. I appreciate that. And you’re, you’re right. I think, like, with the, theLike, like you just said with theUs taking you in, you taking us in, that’s, I think, the beauty of Gumball too. Right? Mm-hmm. Like, you know. Um, I know we were talking about Gumball earlier and how we- Mm-hmm. got, uh, connected with Gumball. And it’s interesting that, like, you know, like, you mentioned the Tony Hawk story and- Mm-hmm. the same way with us. It was through Vine. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that says a lot too right there. Right? Mm-hmm. People aswell-known and who have driven culture globally, like Tony Hawk and Bun, the fact that they see something in people like us- Right. to bring us into their worlds- Yeah. and these amazing experiences- Yeah. and now, like, the people we’re connected to through that- Yeah. um, is, is a beautiful thing. Yeah. And that’s the other thing I, uh, I would say for me is, like, you know, I always, um, wanted to collaborate with people that, that are doing dope things, uh, you know, from a community perspective, from a culture perspective, from a brand perspective, from a creative perspective. Um, and that’s, that’s another great thing about these connected experiences. Mm-hmm. If it hadn’t been for those connected experiences, I wouldn’t be c- uh, connected to people like, you know- Mm-hmm. my, my crew back in, uh, Chicago, you know, the Rexes, the Harbories- Mm-hmm. the Beilros, all those guys. I wouldn’t have connected with you guys. Um, and so says a lot. And, you know, I think, you know, that’s, that’s what I want to keep doing more of, is building relationships with people and- Mm-hmm. you know, building community. Uh, whiskey, beer. Well, let’s just say, you know, whiskey. Uh, liquor, beer, wine, champagne. Which is my go-to? I’m a, uh, that’s tough. That’s tough because I love, I love a good whiskey- Mm-hmm. or a good bourbon, or a scotch. I love a good IPA. Mm-hmm. I love a good wine. Uh, my cousin actually owns a, a vineyard. I was just with him on Friday in Paso Robles called, uh, Gilmore. Uh, check them out. It’s very, very amazing wine. Um- Mm-hmm. But if I had to pick between one of those 3, I would say my go-to is more of an, probably an IPA or an, uh- Okay. on a regular m- m- you know, more regular basis. But, uh, if I’m sitting down with a cigar or something like that, definitely the whiskey or bourbon or the scotch. Nice. Um, and then if I’m trying to be a little bit show off or, uh, chilling, chilling with the lady or something, then probably gonna bring out, bring out the Gilmore. Yeah. That’s awesome. What kind of, uh, kind of whiskey are you drinking? Man, I’m, I’m a fan of blended, blended scotch whiskeys. Uh, so I love Gold Label, uh, Johnnie Walker. Mm-hmm. Uh, Johnnie Walker, the Gold Label and, um, Woodford Reserve- Mm-hmm. the Double, I think it’s the Double Barrel or the- Mm-hmm. Double Oak Barrel is the, um, is the mark. Um, that, that one’s another one of my favorites. Um, I would say those are probably my, my go-tos. Woodford for, like, the more traditional whiskey, but the, uh, s- blended scotch whiskey, I would say Gold Label. Okay. What music you got on in your car right now? What music? Yeah. Man, I’ve been on the Clipse album- Oh, yeah. pretty non-stop, uh, for, for, for a l- for a while, since that dropped. That’s been kind of my, my go-to. Um, I actually heard the, the band that I saw last night was, it’s a DJ and a drummer, and they were playing some of the Clipse music, which was impressive to hear. Mm-hmm. Um, I’m a bigUh, I really love what Nas is doing right now with the, with Mass Appeal and, you know, doing all these albums with, you know, Ghostface, Raekwon, Slick Rick. Mm-hmm. Slick Rick album was amazing. Mm-hmm. Um, the new Cool Kids album is, is very dope. Uh, but those, yeah, I would say those are probably my, my go-tos right now. Um, the JID album is, is fire also, um, but the Clipse, I think, has been the, the, the most impressive album of the, of the year for me. Yeah. We got a, we got a saying at our house of, um, “I put you on. “Yep. And so, uh, that was one that I got to take to the house and go, “Hey, boys. “I got 2 boys. I got a 20 and a 17-year-old. And I was like, “Just so you know, I put you on on this,” and I sent it to the, sent it to the kids. I been listening to, uh, that Clips album for a while now. It’s, it’s, it’s really, really, really good. It’s a great album. Yeah. It’s a great album. And I love how they went from everywhere, like their opening with the song about their parents. Mm-hmm. Uh, you know, that song, I always tell people, like, you know, when you think about the songs like, you know, Dear Mama by Tupac, or- Mm-hmm. Hey Mama by Kanye, like those songs that, Sky’s the Limit by Biggie, those songs that, um, that, that are just gonna last forever, right? Mm-hmm. Like, this is one of those songs where people are gonna listen to the song, it’s gonna make you think about, you know, everyone from your parents to your grandmother- Yeah. grandfather, whoever it may be, right? Yeah. Like, so I think, like, when you can find that, that connection through, through music- Mm-hmm. it’s, it, it’s, that, that’s what music is about, right? Yeah. It’s your, it’s your soul, like Bob Marley said. Um, but I think, you know, the creativity, I love what Malice has been saying, I, I think we’ve killed the ageism in, uh, hip hop conversation- Mm-hmm. because, you know, they’re 52 and 48- Mm-hmm. and are rapping better than people that are 20, uh, 30-year-old, uh- Mm-hmm. right now, so- Yeah. It’s, uh, talent and, and good lyricism is always gonna, is always gonna show up in hip hop and MCing and- Mm-hmm. you know, and these guys, like, you know, uh, Pusha, Malice, Nas, they’re definitely, Raekwon goes, they’re definitely showing that bun, you know? Yeah. They’re, they’re definitely holding it down for our generation. Yeah. Well, it’s cool because all the, the new music is starting to trend a little bit like ’90s hip hop. Yeah. You know? Um, it got to where it was like, uh, really high-pitched rappers and fast rappers- Yep. and, you know, songs that lasted a minute, just likeSuper quick, yeah, yeah. I was just, I was like, “What was? “I didn’t, I mean, it was like a drive-by, didn’t know what even happened with that- Didn’t even hear it, right. just was so quick. But now, it’s starting to come back, you know? It is. And, and I’m really, you know, falling in love with a lot of the new music that’s happening, and soIt is. Who are you, who else are you listening to right now? Um, you know, it’s funny, like I’m, I am all over the board with my, with my music. So, I listen to everything from like, Otis Redding- Oh, nice. to, uh, country music. Yep. You know, Tyler Childress. I’ve got, I’ve been hearing about Tyler Childress. Uh, I’m a, I got, I’m a put you on. All right. Y- yeah, I’m, I’m looking forward to that, okay. Um, but it’s really cool because like, I think music really sets the tone for the energy that you put out. Yeah. You know? If I’m painting in my studio and I got like, a, a heavy painting or something that I’m dealing with, like, I’ll put on music that kind of sets that tone for that. Yep. If I need something that really kind of drives my energy up, you know, I notice getting The Strokes. Yeah. It’s got the same type of energy of what I’m doing, you know? And so, um, you know, there’s some, some older bands too, like, uh, uh, Ghostland Observatory that is like, I don’t know if you know who those guys are, but they’re- I don’t. 2 guys, you know, that, uh, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll give you some, some of their music anyways, but- See, you putting me on, on a couple things now. But it’s, it’s cool because, um, you know, when music does come out, it doesn’t have a timestamp of like, this is going to expire tomorrow. Yeah. Like, you can listen to that forever. Like, there’s stuff that comes out with trends of like, voice boxes and stuff like that- Right. and you know, auto-tuning and whatever, that you can know it’s from a certain genre. if the music’s good, the music’s good and it lives on, lives- That’s true. lives on forever, right? That’s true. So. That’s true. Kind of where I’m at on that deal. Um, but I’m a send you some here, here in a, here in a hot minute. No, that’s a fact. And we got the rest of the night too, so I’m gonna, I’m gonna go ahead and it’s gonna be, you know, killing some music too. Yeah, yeah. Uh, shoes? You a shoe guy. Shoe guy, yes. It’s my go-tos, I would say, sneaker-wise, you know, I’m definitely a big Mike, Mikes guy. Uh- Mm-hmm. Love, love Jays, especially the 1s through the 5s are my favorite. Mm-hmm. Um, anything from 1 through, 1 through 5. Um, I’m also a big Timberland, uh, guy. Um, so, you know, I got everything from the, the, you know, your traditional weed Timbs, um, the rust joints, the super, uh, the, the 40 below Timbs, I got a couple pairs of those also that are, thatHoly grails of, uh- Uh-huh. the Timberlands. Shout out to Pac and Juice. Um, but yeah, those are my, my go-tos, I would say. Nice. And um, and Air Maxes, um, which I’m rocking out. Yeah, sounds like you got your gold Air Max on today. Yeah, yeah. Nice. Those are my, those are my go-tos, Mikes, Air Maxes, and um, Timberlands. What’s the shoe count collection up to right now? Man, I’ve officially run out of space, um, in my closet for, um, my shoes. So now I’m trying to figure out how to, how to manage that. Mm-hmm. Um, not sure the exact count. I want to say it’s, it- it’s n- it’s not as crazy as, as some people. I would say- Yeah. it’s probably around 50- Okay. ish right now. Um, and I try to, you know, uh, also, you know, w- uh, give, uh, g- g- give shoes away and stuff too. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, I, I try to keep them in pretty good condition so even when I’m- Yeah. g- uh, you know, moving them out to make space- Mm-hmm. I feel like they’re still in good, good, good condition for somebody else. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I think I’m probably, m- maybe 60, maybe 70, it’s f- Yeah. It’s in that range. That’s awesome. Yeah. And I kind of feel the same way, I’ve over, over-stocked myself. I’ve had to build new shelves in the closet. See. Just gotten out of control. You know what it is. Yeah, it’s gotten out of control, so. Yeah. You know, it’s a love. I mean- It is. you know, happy to, happy to be able to-Do something so small that gives you such a smile, right? So- Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, our- you know, from our generation, those shoes were, were everything, right? Yeah. SoAnd they would be sold out so quick, you know, so like a lot of times, y- you, you didn’t always get, get to them. Mm-hmm. And they were crazy expensive back then. I mean, I guess in comparison they were cheap back then versus now, but- Mm-hmm. with the markups on them now, but, uhBut yeah, it, it does, it’s just kind of that, me and my guys talk about this all the time, you get these shoes and then it’s like instead of wearing them sometimes you, they just sit in your- Yeah. uh, closet. So that’s something I’m gonna, uh, I’ve told myself I’m gonna do a lot better of is, is wearing. Put them on your feet. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Th- my closet’s getting too much use out of them than IWell, that’s cool. Um, by the way, we were almost camo pant brothers today. I literally had them on and I switched over, but that would have been pretty interesting. That would have been funny. That’d been funny. But it would have made sense though. Great minds, right? Ah, it’s crazy. Well, tell everybody where they can find you at. Yeah. So, um, you know, you can check in with me on, um, Instagram, thisistonyb. Uh, check out my, uh, company also at, uh, Culture Connext, uh, C-O-N-N-E-X-T, um, and then, um, check out my website, cultureconnextion.com. Um, but yeah, you can find me, uh, me personally on all the social, uh, channels, uh, from X to Instagram, Facebook, Threads, um, @thisistonyb. That’s awesome. Man, I appreciate you running in and stopping by and, and, and hanging out with us. So, till next time. Man, I appreciate you having me, man. This has been a great experience and love what you’re doing here. And, uh, man, always great to connect with my brother, so I appreciate you having me here, man. Th- thank you so much. Yeah, 100%. 100%. Well, everybody, that’s the blueprint.